Well, this was a very interesting concept to me because I have always doubted the legitimacy of the whole come from the bottom and rise to the top thing, but I didn't have any really specific reasons to. Now that I know that success relies more on head starts and lucky opportunities I have that reason! The most incredible thing mentioned in the first two chapters, to me, was the effect that date of birth had on success in America. I really couldn't believe that the wealthiest people were all just born at the right time to ride the industrial revolution train, even though it makes so much sense in hindsight.
While I get where you are coming from by mentioning the luck concerning the Matthew effect, I was a bit confused about why you doubt the legitimacy of "coming from the bottom and rising to the top". The Matthew effect is a very disturbing phenomenon to discover, but I don't think it's all "head starts and lucky opportunities" was Gladwell's point. I believe he was attempting to showcase the problems with the way we handle these situations, and what he was ultimately attempting to convey to his readers is that we are handling it wrong when we attempt to group children. We tend to mistake the older children for the ones with the most talent. I felt that chapter two of this book was Gladwell telling us how we SHOULD look at talent instead. Anyone can become a master at something as long as they put the time into it. Instead of focusing on a couple of kids that we label as "better" than the others, we should be working with all of them. This way, the younger ones don't get shunted to the side and miss out on their opportunity to get their 10,000 hours.
My question has to do with the equation given in chapter 2 that says that achievement is talent plus preparation. I feel like success in chapter 1 is described as being all about that lucky opportunity, whereas chapter 2 focuses more on practice (10,000 hours of it, to be exact). How do you think that achievement and success relate to each other?
I think it all kind of boils down to the idea that success is achievement plus lucky opportunity. You have to have the time to reach a certain level of achievement and then have opportunities to use what you've achieved. Once you get there, you can be "successful." I think of it having as like having the time to draw for hours and hours and hours every day, becoming really good, but then also needing an outlet to display/sell your work. A lot of times with the Internet, that requires you to either get lucky or spam people with information regarding your stuff. You may be a wonderful artist, but you haven't achieved success (as the book seems to be defining it).
Yes Casey I kinda saw it that way too. I feel like this lucky opportunity begins with your birthdate. But I only think it has to do with birthdates because of cut off dates and schedules that are set by sports, education, and all the other things. What if there wasn't these cut off date? I know they are needed but I wonder what would happen if your age really didn't matter.
As for you question on achievement relating to success. I think that achievement comes from all the opportunities one has. Without having the opportunity to do something you wouldn't spend hours to achieve whatever it is you want to do. So I see as opportunity as coming first. Then you have achievements from those opportunities. To be successful I think what matters is what you do with your achievements.
I really like the way that you phrased that, Baneza. I definitely agree that what really matters is what you do once you are given the opportunity. I mean, the book talks a lot about great people who come from nothing, but it doesn't really mention all of the average people that are born into a world of opportunity but choose not to make the most of those advantages. Growing up in suburbia, I had plenty of opportunities open to me; I could have played any sport I wanted or pursued all sorts of academic or creative activities, but I wasn't really serious about any of my hobbies as a kid. I guess I never realized when I was young that having those opportunities could lead to success and achievement later in life. I wonder if I would have taken them more seriously if I had seen them as opportunities.
I really like the way that you phrased that, Baneza. I definitely agree that what really matters is what you do once you are given the opportunity. I mean, the book talks a lot about great people who come from nothing, but it doesn't really mention all of the average people that are born into a world of opportunity but choose not to make the most of those advantages. Growing up in suburbia, I had plenty of opportunities open to me; I could have played any sport I wanted or pursued all sorts of academic or creative activities, but I wasn't really serious about any of my hobbies as a kid. I guess I never realized when I was young that having those opportunities could lead to success and achievement later in life. I wonder if I would have taken them more seriously if I had seen them as opportunities.
This really just validated the way I always felt about the "American Dream." Life is not as easy as hard work=success. There are so many other factors that play into it. As the saying now goes, "It's not what you know, it's who you know." If you dont make the right connections, then it can be impossible to ever make it to success.
Shamiah, I think you commented int he wrong group. Not that we don't value your thoughts, but I don't want you to not get credit for class if she can't find your comment!
(This is Kayleigh again--sorry about the name confusion)
I hate to blabber on more about myself, but I thought about this while I was reading: I was born July 31st, and school started the second week in August. My mom didn't realize at the time that she could have held me back a year and waited until I was six before putting me in Kindergarten. As a result, I have always been on the young side in comparison to my peers. I graduated high school at 17. We've often wondered if it was a bad decision to hold me back. I never suffered academically, but emotionally we often feel like I'm a year or two behind everyone else. I wonder if the Matthew Effect applies here, considering that despite my disadvantages in age and emotional maturity, I had very little academic struggles in school.
My question is: Do you guys have anything that you feel is particularly advantageous to you in terms of school or life in general? Are there things that could be considered disadvantages? And have you ever thought of them that way before, prior to this program?
That's a fascinating observation, Kayleigh! I can see how you would be at a disadvantage being younger. I was born in October, so I guess I was slightly older than the rest of the students in my grade. I wasn't really a star student, but I was in TAG (talented and gifted) in elementary school and I don't remember the test to get in being very difficult for me.
We had something similar at my elementary school. I think it was called Target, and I do remember taking the test for that as a fourth or fifth grader (I missed it by like, three points--so annoying!). After going through this program, though, I can't help but wonder if those types of tests are just big fat jokes.
I was also born in October, but I was the youngest in my class. I remember everyone was almost a year older than me but I never felt like I was behind. Sometimes I felt like I was ahead. For instance, I was in 4th grade when I moved to GA. I started school here in September, so school was going on for about a month or a little more. In California school didn't begin until late September. So when I went into 4th grade I was ahead in math and reading but I think it was only because the things they were learning in the beginning of the year here in GA, I learned at the end of the previous year in CA. So I think my advantage was that I had gone to a school with a different schedule in the year. I think in 5th grade I was back to being at the same level as most students. As for emotional maturity, like you mentioned Kayleigh, I don't think I was lacking maturity considering I was almost a whole year younger than my classmates. I wonder if its because I was used to being around older kids. I remember being 8-9 years old and I would hang out with my older cousins12-14. Also, my friends from my neighborhood were also a few years older than me. I don't know if this has anything to do with it but I thought it was interesting to point out.
That is very interesting! I wonder if it may have something to do with girls maturing faster than boys. It may be easier for us to skip a grade and not lack maturity whereas a boy may be at a real disadvantage if he is younger. From our discussion about gender, boys are also expected to be more rowdy and get in trouble more often, so also being younger may really stack the deck against a boy.
Who you spend a large amount of time around may have something to do with it. I had few friends in my childhood, and my two best ones were at least a year and a half younger than me. They were both two years behind me in school. This was a recurring theme in my life, so that probably didn't help (and I was the oldest in my family). But as Casey pointed out, as a student I was fine--very quiet, reserved, and I did my work without issue. Pretty typical of a girl and how kids are most often desired to act in a classroom setting. It was only on those rare occasions that I would lose it, and most were probably stress and anxiety-related. Still, they were significant enough when they did happen it worried my teachers. So who knows haha.
Sbobet It is a site that you will be participating in gaming, computer network, as well as freedom. There are no limits to any of them because the internet betting system Gclub 69 of us is open in the matter of the original gambling in every prototype. especially There is a legitimate agreement of Cambodia. In addition, we have been operating for over 10 years and are the pinnacle of online gamblers throughout Southeast Asia. With every care process. The risk of our site is with the gambler for a long time. The technology is cutting edge. Images and systems that are realistic. And that is more than that. We have live broadcasting schemes. Direct from the top gambling casinos at Poipi. Visit our website directly. Or do you want the convenience to join the fun. Specialized play through mobile phones today. Do not wait, we have the complete delivery of fun to your home today. Do not stop 24 hours at the site. คาสิโน
Well, this was a very interesting concept to me because I have always doubted the legitimacy of the whole come from the bottom and rise to the top thing, but I didn't have any really specific reasons to. Now that I know that success relies more on head starts and lucky opportunities I have that reason! The most incredible thing mentioned in the first two chapters, to me, was the effect that date of birth had on success in America. I really couldn't believe that the wealthiest people were all just born at the right time to ride the industrial revolution train, even though it makes so much sense in hindsight.
ReplyDeleteWhile I get where you are coming from by mentioning the luck concerning the Matthew effect, I was a bit confused about why you doubt the legitimacy of "coming from the bottom and rising to the top".
DeleteThe Matthew effect is a very disturbing phenomenon to discover, but I don't think it's all "head starts and lucky opportunities" was Gladwell's point. I believe he was attempting to showcase the problems with the way we handle these situations, and what he was ultimately attempting to convey to his readers is that we are handling it wrong when we attempt to group children. We tend to mistake the older children for the ones with the most talent.
I felt that chapter two of this book was Gladwell telling us how we SHOULD look at talent instead. Anyone can become a master at something as long as they put the time into it. Instead of focusing on a couple of kids that we label as "better" than the others, we should be working with all of them. This way, the younger ones don't get shunted to the side and miss out on their opportunity to get their 10,000 hours.
My question has to do with the equation given in chapter 2 that says that achievement is talent plus preparation. I feel like success in chapter 1 is described as being all about that lucky opportunity, whereas chapter 2 focuses more on practice (10,000 hours of it, to be exact). How do you think that achievement and success relate to each other?
ReplyDeleteI think it all kind of boils down to the idea that success is achievement plus lucky opportunity. You have to have the time to reach a certain level of achievement and then have opportunities to use what you've achieved. Once you get there, you can be "successful." I think of it having as like having the time to draw for hours and hours and hours every day, becoming really good, but then also needing an outlet to display/sell your work. A lot of times with the Internet, that requires you to either get lucky or spam people with information regarding your stuff. You may be a wonderful artist, but you haven't achieved success (as the book seems to be defining it).
DeleteI hope that makes sense haha.
Yes Casey I kinda saw it that way too. I feel like this lucky opportunity begins with your birthdate. But I only think it has to do with birthdates because of cut off dates and schedules that are set by sports, education, and all the other things. What if there wasn't these cut off date? I know they are needed but I wonder what would happen if your age really didn't matter.
DeleteAs for you question on achievement relating to success. I think that achievement comes from all the opportunities one has. Without having the opportunity to do something you wouldn't spend hours to achieve whatever it is you want to do. So I see as opportunity as coming first. Then you have achievements from those opportunities. To be successful I think what matters is what you do with your achievements.
I really like the way that you phrased that, Baneza. I definitely agree that what really matters is what you do once you are given the opportunity. I mean, the book talks a lot about great people who come from nothing, but it doesn't really mention all of the average people that are born into a world of opportunity but choose not to make the most of those advantages. Growing up in suburbia, I had plenty of opportunities open to me; I could have played any sport I wanted or pursued all sorts of academic or creative activities, but I wasn't really serious about any of my hobbies as a kid. I guess I never realized when I was young that having those opportunities could lead to success and achievement later in life. I wonder if I would have taken them more seriously if I had seen them as opportunities.
DeleteI really like the way that you phrased that, Baneza. I definitely agree that what really matters is what you do once you are given the opportunity. I mean, the book talks a lot about great people who come from nothing, but it doesn't really mention all of the average people that are born into a world of opportunity but choose not to make the most of those advantages. Growing up in suburbia, I had plenty of opportunities open to me; I could have played any sport I wanted or pursued all sorts of academic or creative activities, but I wasn't really serious about any of my hobbies as a kid. I guess I never realized when I was young that having those opportunities could lead to success and achievement later in life. I wonder if I would have taken them more seriously if I had seen them as opportunities.
DeleteThis really just validated the way I always felt about the "American Dream." Life is not as easy as hard work=success. There are so many other factors that play into it. As the saying now goes, "It's not what you know, it's who you know." If you dont make the right connections, then it can be impossible to ever make it to success.
ReplyDeleteShamiah, I think you commented int he wrong group. Not that we don't value your thoughts, but I don't want you to not get credit for class if she can't find your comment!
Delete(This is Kayleigh again--sorry about the name confusion)
ReplyDeleteI hate to blabber on more about myself, but I thought about this while I was reading: I was born July 31st, and school started the second week in August. My mom didn't realize at the time that she could have held me back a year and waited until I was six before putting me in Kindergarten. As a result, I have always been on the young side in comparison to my peers. I graduated high school at 17. We've often wondered if it was a bad decision to hold me back. I never suffered academically, but emotionally we often feel like I'm a year or two behind everyone else. I wonder if the Matthew Effect applies here, considering that despite my disadvantages in age and emotional maturity, I had very little academic struggles in school.
My question is: Do you guys have anything that you feel is particularly advantageous to you in terms of school or life in general? Are there things that could be considered disadvantages? And have you ever thought of them that way before, prior to this program?
*bad decision to NOT hold me back.
DeleteThat's a fascinating observation, Kayleigh! I can see how you would be at a disadvantage being younger. I was born in October, so I guess I was slightly older than the rest of the students in my grade. I wasn't really a star student, but I was in TAG (talented and gifted) in elementary school and I don't remember the test to get in being very difficult for me.
DeleteWe had something similar at my elementary school. I think it was called Target, and I do remember taking the test for that as a fourth or fifth grader (I missed it by like, three points--so annoying!). After going through this program, though, I can't help but wonder if those types of tests are just big fat jokes.
DeleteI was also born in October, but I was the youngest in my class. I remember everyone was almost a year older than me but I never felt like I was behind. Sometimes I felt like I was ahead. For instance, I was in 4th grade when I moved to GA. I started school here in September, so school was going on for about a month or a little more. In California school didn't begin until late September. So when I went into 4th grade I was ahead in math and reading but I think it was only because the things they were learning in the beginning of the year here in GA, I learned at the end of the previous year in CA. So I think my advantage was that I had gone to a school with a different schedule in the year. I think in 5th grade I was back to being at the same level as most students. As for emotional maturity, like you mentioned Kayleigh, I don't think I was lacking maturity considering I was almost a whole year younger than my classmates. I wonder if its because I was used to being around older kids. I remember being 8-9 years old and I would hang out with my older cousins12-14. Also, my friends from my neighborhood were also a few years older than me. I don't know if this has anything to do with it but I thought it was interesting to point out.
DeleteThat is very interesting! I wonder if it may have something to do with girls maturing faster than boys. It may be easier for us to skip a grade and not lack maturity whereas a boy may be at a real disadvantage if he is younger. From our discussion about gender, boys are also expected to be more rowdy and get in trouble more often, so also being younger may really stack the deck against a boy.
DeleteWho you spend a large amount of time around may have something to do with it. I had few friends in my childhood, and my two best ones were at least a year and a half younger than me. They were both two years behind me in school. This was a recurring theme in my life, so that probably didn't help (and I was the oldest in my family). But as Casey pointed out, as a student I was fine--very quiet, reserved, and I did my work without issue. Pretty typical of a girl and how kids are most often desired to act in a classroom setting. It was only on those rare occasions that I would lose it, and most were probably stress and anxiety-related. Still, they were significant enough when they did happen it worried my teachers. So who knows haha.
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ReplyDeleteSbobet It is a site that you will be participating in gaming, computer network, as well as freedom. There are no limits to any of them because the internet betting system Gclub 69 of us is open in the matter of the original gambling in every prototype. especially There is a legitimate agreement of Cambodia. In addition, we have been operating for over 10 years and are the pinnacle of online gamblers throughout Southeast Asia.
With every care process. The risk of our site is with the gambler for a long time. The technology is cutting edge. Images and systems that are realistic. And that is more than that. We have live broadcasting schemes. Direct from the top gambling casinos at Poipi. Visit our website directly. Or do you want the convenience to join the fun. Specialized play through mobile phones today.
Do not wait, we have the complete delivery of fun to your home today. Do not stop 24 hours at the site. คาสิโน